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Federal Government of Germany:
StS Dr. Sudhoff
MD Schlagintweit
VLR I Ischinger
VLR Staks

Federal President:
ORR judge

Federal Ministry of the Interior:
ORR'in Jacobs

Bundesrat:
RRz.A. Prengel (Bayern)

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attendance for the public hearing

"If there are German citizens involuntarily and under
contravene human rights conditions in the Colonia Dignidad in Chile?"

On 22 February 1988

experts / resource persons
Name
Baar, Hugo
Bohnau, Günter
Bossle, Lothar, Prof. Dr.
Frenz, Helmut
Gemballa, Gero
Holzheimer, H. [signature missing]
Hopp, Hartmut, Dr.
Kneese, Wolfgang
Packmor, Lotti
Packmor, Georg
Peymann, Friedrich
Strätling, Erich [signature missing]
Vogelgesang, Wolfgang

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bird Chairman: I am opening today's public meeting of the Sub Committee on Human Rights and Humanitarian Aid of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the German Bundestag. We have today a hearing and to have loaded a number of Anhörpersonen. I must say that we are not an investigative committee and that the ladies and gentlemen, we have asked, we want to have today, not in the capacity of witnesses or experts are here. They are, it is technically expressed, respondents who have voluntarily made available to answer our questions we have regarding the Colonia Dignidad in Chile, specifically on the topic of "being in a German national involuntarily and contravene human rights conditions of Colonia Dignidad in Chile? "

There is a wide public discussion on the Colonia Dignidad. We are not possible from his own knowledge to determine what is there. We hope this public bring hearing some light on this matter to.

are many listeners and viewers are present. I know from preliminary discussions that there is such a large number of ladies and gentlemen, in the questions on which we wish to negotiate with each other today, are personally committed. I must nevertheless ask that you make the end of this hearing so possible that we get through in the prescribed time, which is available to us, that is up to 14 clock. I must therefore ask you most sincerely, from applause or to refrain from Mißfallenskundgebungen and the like. I know that this is sometimes difficult when you own engaged emotionally. But I must also entreat that this is made possible and that you stick to it. I will further say to the moment.

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I must then first of all inform you, who has been invited as Anhörperson and asked us to be available and who is present. We asked: Mr Günter Bohnau from Siegburg, Germany, Mr Helmut Frenz from Ammersbek, Wolfgang Kneese from Hamburg, Mr. Gero Gemballa from Cologne, Mr Hugo Baar from Cologne, Mr Frederick Peymann from Otterberg, Mr and Mrs George and Lotti Packmor from Canada. May I thank you especially for the fact that the long and arduous journey from Canada have made here to let us have today. to stand. We asked a representative of the private social mission in Siegburg, I would like to say something. We continue to have asked by the German Society for Foreign Relations of the former Ambassador of the Federal Republic of Germany in Chile, Mr Eric Strätling, in addition to Professor Lothar Bossle from Würzburg, Mr Councillor Wolfgang Vogelgesang from Munich and Ambassador Holzheimer, the Deputy Secretary General of the WEU London.

You may have noticed that both Mr and Mr Holzheimer Strätling were absent. I would like to tell you something. Mrs. Jordan, the Employee of the Unteraussohusses has made a note of a telephone conversation. I read these words just before:

by telephoning the Foreign Office on 17 February 1988 heard the Secretary of
Unterausachusses more or less by chance that Mr Holzheimer
in the hearing will not participate. On the occasion of previous telephone conversations with the office he had confirmed his participation. An immediate telephone call to Mr Holzheimer was found that the information was true of the AA. Mr Holzheimer justified his absence by saying that he himself had never visited the Colonia Dignidad and tribal knowledge is only second or third hand. It was

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daher nicht sinnvoll, wenn er zum Anhörungstermin komme.

Ich mißbillige ausdrücklich - dies möchte ich hier sagen -, daß Herr Botschafter Holzheimer, den ich schriftlich gebeten habe, uns zur Verfügung zu stehen, dem Vorsitzenden des Unterausschusses darauf nicht geantwortet hat. Es steht ihn natürlich völlig frei, ob er hier anwesend ist oder nicht. Ich will das, was er als Begründung für sein Fernbleiben gibt, auch gar nicht werten; aber ich halte es für ein Gebot zumindest der Höflichkeit, daß man, wenn man einen Brief mit einer Einladung bekommt, darauf antwortet.

Herr Botschafter a. D. Strätling hat mir folgenden Letter written and asked me to read that letter here. The letter dated 18 February 1988.

Mr. Chairman, I acknowledge receipt of your invitation
of 25 January 1988, before the Subcommittee on Human Rights and Humanitarian
help of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the German Bundestag. 22 February 1988
at a hearing in accordance. § 70 GO are the Bundestag as a respondent to
available. After a thorough discussion of the associated invitation
factual and legal issues with my lawyers
I deeply regret not Mr Chairman, your invitation for the following reasons
obey to:

First. The member of your subcommittee, Mr
Freimut Duve (SPD), has me in a letter to the President of the German
on Foreign Relations of complicity with him the
accused of human rights abuses suspects of Colonia Dignidad
and my dismissal of deputy as executive
President of the German

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company proposed on Foreign Relations. My answer to these accusations is to you, Mr. Chairman, well known and I have no objection to the members of the subcommittee to also note zu bringen. - Ich möchte Sie ferner davon in Kenntnis setzen, daß ich durch die Rechtsanwaltssozietät Dr. Claessen, Haupt und Kuhl am 1. Februar 1988 bei der Staatsanwaltschaft Bonn Strafanzeige gegen Herrn Abgeordneten Duve wegen Verdachts der üblen Nachrede und Verleumdung gegen eine Person des öffentlichen Lebens (SS 185 ff., 187 a StGB) erstattet habe. Ferner ist eine zivilrechtliche Klage gegen Herrn Duve in Vorbereitung. Zweitens. Das stellvertretende Mitglied Ihres Unterausschusses, Herr Abgeordneter Waltemathe (SPD) , hat am 6. Januar 1988 "Schriftliche Fragen" an die Bundesregierung gerichtet, die sich ebenfalls auf meine Botschaftertätigkeit in Chile beziehen. Darüber hinaus hat Herr Abgeordneter Waltemathe in seiner Eigenschaft als Vorsitzender der Arbeitsgruppe Chile der SPD-Bundestagsfraktion am 22. Januar 1988 die "öffentliche Anhörung zur Deutschen Siedlung ,Colonia Dignidad‘ in Chile“ angekündigt und wie folgt kommentiert. "Damit ist zum ersten Male der Deutsche Bundestag offiziell mit Angelegenheiten befaßt, die jahrelang zwar immer wieder in die Schlagzeilen gerieten, aber nie zu parlamentarischen fraktionsübergreifenden Schritten geführten hatten.“

Drittens. Die Art und Weise der Ankündigung der "Anhörung“ durch den Vorsitzenden der SPD-Arbeitsgruppe Chile, Herrn Abgeordneten Waltemathe - und nicht durch das Büro des Unterausschusses für Menschenrechte und humanitäre Hilfe - legt den zwingenden Schluß nahe, daß über das vom

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Auswärtigen Ausschuß beschlossene Anhörungsthema hinaus eine Verknüpfung
mit den unter Ziffern 1 und 2 erwähnten Vorwürfen gegen mich nicht
ausgeschlossen werden kann, ja vielleicht sogar beabsichtigt ist.

Für diese Annahme spricht auch der Umstand, daß der Herrn Abgeordneten
Duve vertretende Anwalt Dr. Neumann in einem Schreiben an meinen Anwalt Dr.
Claessen vom 1. Februar 1988 die Bitte um Fristverlängerung für eine Äußerung
mit der Bemerkung versehen hat "... gestatten uns aber bereits jetzt schon
darauf hinzuweisen, daß der Unterausschuß für Menschenrechte Humanitarian assistance and
on 22 February 1988 in a public hearing with the problem of
, Colonia Dignidad deal '. In this consultation shall also
two diplomats, the ambassador to Chile with matters related to the
, Colonia Dignidad were 'concerned to be heard "- Erich
Strätling.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have read without any intention of commenting. Even Mr Strätling it was of course completely free to stand at our disposal. He has decided today not to be available, and he has established in this letter.

I ask sehr um Nachsicht; soeben wird mir die Kopie eines Briefes überreicht, den Herr Botschafter Holzheimer unter dem 9. Februar 1988 an mich abgeschickt haben soll. Ich muß dazu sagen, der Brief hat mich bisher nicht erreicht. Aber ich möchte dann doch der Vollständigkeit halber auch diese Kopie mit allem Vorbehalt verlesen:

Sehr geehrter Herr Abgeordneter, haben Sie verbindlichen Dank für Ihr Schreiben
vom 25. Januar 1988. Ich entnehme der Anlage zu diesem Schreiben, daß das Thema der Anhörung wie folgt lautet: "Befinden sich deutsche Staatsangehörige
unfreiwillig und unter menschenrechts-

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verletzenden Bedingungen in der Colonia Dignidad in Chile? "This was my
unknown. Since I have never visited the Colonia Dignidad myself, I can
make on this particular issue not on their own perceptions based information. The invited you Packmor families and Baar are most likely to be usable statements in the situation. If I had

pulled out of me available documents and statements of third parties
conclusions, these are contained in my report to the Foreign Office
. About this report, the Federal Foreign Office
the Bundestag, where information and will undoubtedly continue to do so.
for me under the circumstances is not an appearance before the subcommittee
sense. Best regards.

I've told you this for completeness as well.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have yet to give then the following note. I was a letter from the lawyers Norbert Gatz and Heinz-Jürgen Kunz from Cologne on 16 Reached in February 1988, which states:

Dear Mr. Vogel, I would like to show you that I was the private
Sociale mission, represented by Mr Hans-Jürgen Blanck, with the perception
instructed their interests. My clients like to take your invitation
for consultation on 22 February 1988 on. I add in the installation of a power of attorney
Vorsitzenden der Freien Sociale,Mission und stellvertretenden Vorsitzenden der
Sociedad Benefactora y Educacional Dignidad, Herrn Hans-Jürgen Blanck, bei, der
Herrn Dr. Hartmut Hopp bevollmächtigt hat,

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- ich glaube, Herr Dr. Hopp ist anwesend -

an seiner Stelle an dieser Anhörung teilzunehmen. Wie sich aus der Vollmacht
ergibt, ist die Ausstellung eines neuen Reisepasses für Herrn Blanck durch die
zuständige Konsularabteilung der Deutschen Botschaft in Santiago de Chile in
unvertretbarer Weise verzögert worden. Herr Blanck hätte gerne selbst an der
Anhörung teilgenommen.

Ich werde mir erlauben, vor dem 22. February 1988
ask whether as to the participation of Dr. Hopp for the Prevention of Mr. Blanck stated
concern on your part. The undersigned
or a member of our firm will be with Dr. Hopp to be heard.

I want to say that I agreed to this request, instead of listening to Mr. Blanck Mr. Hopp here today.

It will be the authority of Mr. Blanck and the Statement of Legal Gatz and Harry that Lord would Dr. Hopp of attorney Gottfried Reims, Cologne, which is also present and accompanied by lawyer Gatz.

(Interjection: He will come later!)

- He will come around at 12.30 clock. I beg your indulgence, which is also here.

This is that, ladies and gentlemen, what I had to tell you in advance to make it clear why two asked by our people in general are not present and requested an extension of us Anhörperson is represented by a different Anhörperson.

Abg. Walton (SPD) , I will first assess not what was written by Mr. Strätling. I will only tell, that what I was asking is, according to the guidelines of the Federal Parliament and to the extent public and

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in the responses of the Federal Government to written questions from Members also is printed.

Second. It has to my knowledge at the 17th February 1988 a meeting took place at the Foreign Office. I do not know whether or not due to the meeting, the two are not present today Exbotschafter now, after they had both agreed to come. Also, I will evaluate any further. But I want to find the record, that officials or retired officials should indeed have so much respect for Parliament, that they could attend a hearing, unless the statement that approval has been denied by the Foreign Office, which would determine.

Third. We are not an investigative committee. I am somewhat surprised that a ... - Let me say this in quotes - "party" here the same occurs with lawyers, it is not about formal legal proceedings

Rep. Duve (SPD) : I have occasion to refer briefly to the letter from Mr Strätling I. was written on 18 December to the President of the German Society for Foreign Policy - otherwise, as was shown in the just-selected letter from Mr. Strätling:

In the last meeting of the Foreign Affairs Committee on 9 December 1987 on the
been further parliamentary procedure in the matter discussed. We will
our Subcommittee on Human Rights and Humanitarian Help deal intensively
with the processes in the Colonia Dignidad. I hope that we come to
, single witness, if they are here in the Federal Republic
available to listen. During the meeting the actions of the former Ambassador Eric
Strätling by some colleagues and I was even criticized
. It will be necessary to determine whether this covered

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potentially serious criminal acts or indirectly supported
have been. We will have to discuss this issue in the sub-committee to thoroughly
...

I would like for this reason, the Bureau of the German Society
ask on Foreign Relations, for an appropriate and prestige of the company to seek
reasonable way to save the company from
issues associated with the Colonia Dignidad, stay out.
I think it is inevitable that the rest of the duties currently
executive vice-president Eric Strätling
pending the resolution of the issues, and please, bring about a decision
.

This is the core of my request to the Company. I regret that Mr. Strätling and society have not found this way. This company stands for more in German foreign policy than to discuss such biographical details of some of their members.

bird Chairman: I would suggest that we accept these two statements without evaluation and without an answer just like that, for us it's all about something else today. We are concerned primarily about the ladies and gentlemen, we have asked to stand at our disposal to win your own image of what is now actually in the Colonia Dignidad in Chile. I would be very grateful if we would spend the time now no longer with preliminaries, but the time available to us as would use to those we have asked to come to us to have a say.

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Abg. Mrs. Olms (Greens) : I want to point further.

Mr. Walton had already asked the question whether the Foreign Office a statement or a recommendation for the two Exbotschafter admit not to testify. I think we should have a representative of the Foreign Office here shortly to hear.

bird Chairman: Mrs Olms, most of those we have asked, is present. With all the other issues that arise otherwise, we should concern ourselves if we to the next Meeting together, and we should not do here and now this.

I suggest the following procedure and would be very grateful if you would agree. We should first of those we have asked to stand to us, given the opportunity, 10 to 15 minutes - but please no more! - Tell us what can you tell us from his own knowledge to the question we have told them. We do not care what you have heard somewhere, but what they themselves have seen what you have seen yourself and what you yourself have heard, which we are interested first and foremost. I would be very grateful if you could tell us then in each case to as you have won the insights you share with us here.

My suggestion to the members of the Committee asks that we first hear the ladies and gentlemen, one after another and that we need not be exactly what time we have available to more questions. I would imagine that we, if they stick to the 10 to 15 minutes and we still have a lot of time to 14 clock is available. I must however point out that I am here on time by 14 clock must leave, because then I attended a meeting of the 2nd Investigation Committee as Vice Chairman must participate. In addition, other members of the Subcommittee notified in advance that they can stand up to 14 clock also available.

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I can, if you agree to start, then with the hearing of Mr Kneese.

Mr. Kneese, you are, if I have understood things right with preliminary discussions have been in the Colonia Dignidad, and about 1966 left in the Colonia Dignidad. May I urge you to try us your experiences in 10 to a maximum of 15 minutes - the shorter the better-put forward. You might begin by saying a little about yourself so we know who we're dealing with.

Kneese : I would first like to Problematik mit meinem Nachnamen erklären. Ich habe bei meiner Eheschließung den Namen meiner Gattin angenommen und habe zu der Zeit, als ich aus Chile geflohen bin und in den Jahren danach, den Namen Ernst-Wolfgang Müller getragen. Ich möchte das einmal erläutern, damit das nicht zu Verwechslungen führt.

Zu Ihrer Frage kann ich sagen, daß ich am 25. und 26. Juli 1961 von Deutschland nach Chile geflogen bin in der Hoffnung, die Erfüllung der Versprechen, die man uns als Jugendlichen in Heide gemacht hat, dort vorzufinden. Ich bin leider bitter enttäuscht gewesen, daß die Versprechungen nicht eingehalten worden sind was die Aufenthaltsmöglich- keit, die Ausbildung usw., betraf. Ich fühlte mich auf Grund dessen hinters Licht geführt und habe im Oktober 1962 die erste Flucht unternommen, die leider nur ein Versuch geblieben ist. Die zweite Flucht aus der Siedlung habe ich am 25. Oktober 1963 unternommen mit dem Ergebnis, daß auch diese gescheitert ist. Meine letzte Flucht habe ich am 1. März 1966 gegen 20.30 Uhr unternommen.

Diese drei Fluchtversuche, die das Ergebnis hatten, daß ich die Sekte endlich verlassen konnte, liegen darin begründet, daß die Menschenrechte in der Colonia Dignidad zu meiner Zeit mit Füßen getreten wurden. Ich will das einmal dadurch untermauern, daß ich Ihnen ein Zitat von einem ehemaligen Schulfreund von Paul Schäfer, der mir damals in der bedrängten Zeit geholfen hat, mich to fight against the cult, was read out from the year 1966 - I quote -:

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"Human dignity was trampled It was called humility when
it endured to be wrongly accused of a liability.. It was called
pride when they demanded his right, and mentally ill was called the "
the shepherd of a debt convicted accused or openly about abuses."

That was a quote from William George of 21 July 1966. I myself have I bow to the instructions and the terror regime of Shepherd and do not have exactly what appeals to Mr. George in his sentence just quoted, on own body. Attempts have been made meinen Willen zu brechen, indem man mich über Jahre hinweg auf gröbste Art und Weise geschlagen hat. Man hat mir in jeder Weise Mißachtung entgegengebracht; man hat mich in bestimmte Kleider gesteckt, um mich von den anderen zu unterscheiden; man hat mir die Haare geschnitten; man hat mich so behandelt, daß ich - so möchte ich es einmal sagen - den Eindruck machen mußte, daß ich ein Geisteskranker sei.

Es gibt tatsächlich Leute, die in der Sekte lebten und die der Meinung gewesen sind, daß ich wirklich einer Behandlung bedurfte. Diese Behandlung habe ich nicht gewünscht; sie ist auch mit keinem Facharzt besprochen worden. Ich bin vielmehr dazu gezwungen worden. Bei einer Weigerung ist mir körperlicher Schaden zugefügt worden, in der Form, daß ich auf brutalste Weise geschlagen und gezwungen wurde, die Tabletten, die ich nicht einnehmen wollte, einzunehmen. Diese Tabletten habe ich über ein Jahr genommen; es müssen - ich habe es einmal durchgezählt - ungefähr 500 gewesen sein. Als man mich dabei erwischte, daß ich die Tabletten nicht nehmen wollte, ist man zu gröberen Maßnahmen übergegangen und hat mir Spritzen verabreicht, die eine wesentlich höhere Dosierung hatten, um meinen Willen zu brechen und um mich kampfunfähig zu machen.

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All diese Dinge haben mit sozialer und christlicher Pflege des Kindes überhaupt nichts zu tun. Da herrscht ein Unterdrückungssystem, which is tantamount to the fact that only Mr. Schaefer penetrated his will and that he who parried, not in the form in which I have just described here is treated until he - is brushed parallel - I say in the case always.
When I finally had survived after inhuman hardships, the third flight, and I stayed in Santiago, the Sociale Christian society that is so adorned with the beautiful name "Dignidad" is trying to penetrate with 15 people in the building in which I I had hidden in Santiago in 1966. This attack on the nursing home, which was then headed by Paul Katzy, two persons have been arrested. If I remember correctly remember that Mr. Quick Kamp and Mr. Schreiber have been.

then you have given me more processes. I will say again, you have me for the work I've done in that time there, not paid a single penny, you have paid for me, no social security. On the contrary, has been accused me of stealing a horse. Because I used to run my horse, because the nearest town was 40 to 50 km away from the settlement. I myself have made in my view, the claim that I too have enjoyed four years of the hardest physical labor, without a weekend without a holiday, would have the right, deserves to have a horse. In addition, I have not taken the horse for all time to me, but it was later found in the colony, so that the offense of theft have been given so far I suppose not.
Then I also two processes by a Mr. Schmidt, who also belongs to the Executive Board, because of slander and libel, and also a process with identically worded indictment of Dr. Gisela Seewald, who has been in my time responsible that

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I have been mistreated with these drugs get to the neck, I say this once so casually.

me at this whole story of course not the case, my Mother forgot that unfortunately is not present and, if it had been loaded, this strain can withstand such a hearing could not be at all. My mother is in the period from August 1963 to 5th April 1966 from this oh-so-social and the right of the child, the stray child, and god knows what all entering society, have been locked in a room where she had to undergo multiple electroshock treatments - also against their will. Even if this woman will not quite believe that this happened, it can be shown to still show the burned temples, the attributable to improper treatment by electric shock are.

I would then say something about the processes. The judgments against me have been announced in my absence. I could not win the processes. I could not win the processes because a Heinz Kuhn, who has broken up a few years after my escape, also of the sect, was formerly assigned by Schaefer - he shall so report in Germany WDR in the camera - my processes to manipulate. "Manipulation" in this context: The Interpreter, which should translate my statements from German into English, it should bend to my detriment, so that I based on a false reporting and false translation nie in die Lage versetzt worden wäre, selbst wenn ich hundertmal die Wahrheit gesagt hätte, irgendeinen Prozeß zu gewinnen. Außerdem hat dieser Mann ausgesagt, daß er von Schäfer beauftragt worden sei, rechtzeitig an Unterlagen und Gerichtsakten heranzukommen, damit die Gegenseite vor den anderen Akteneinsicht nehmen konnte, um sich rechtzeitig mit ihren sehr guten Anwälten - so muß ich sagen; ich hatte ja nur einen Pflichtverteidiger auf den Prozeß vorzubereiten.

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Der Prozeß wegen des Pferdediebstahls ist - so will ich einmal sagen - wegen Nichtigkeit niedergeschlagen worden. In den beiden anderen Fällen bin ich in Abwesenheit verurteilt worden. Ich muß immer davon ausgehen, daß ich ja im Grunde genommen nur die Wahrheit gesagt habe, das, was ich drüben erlebt habe. Das, was ich damals vor ungefähr 20 Jahren vor der Presse ausgesagt habe, hat mir in Chile in zwei Fällen ein Urteil über jeweils fünf Jahre und einen Tag und eine Geldstrafe von 50 000 Escudos eingebracht. Es ist die gleiche Aussage, die ich vor 20 Jahren gemacht habe; ich mache sie heute schon wieder.

Ich will dann sagen, daß ich mich der Verurteilung entzogen habe, weil ich gemerkt habe, daß diese Dinge allmählich nicht mehr mit rechten Dingen zugingen, und bin auch auf Anraten der deutschen Botschaft ermutigt worden, das Land auf illegale Art und Weise zu verlassen. Ich habe dann meinen Rückflug von Buenos Aires in Argentina continued to Germany. I do not remember exactly, but I believe that my departure from Buenos Aires to Frankfurt on 5 April 1966 is done.

So this is in very short strokes and the pressure of time and under the condition that the others can also say something in a very small selection of the things that I can give you from my own experience. I can tell you still: In the years after my escape, other people have fled, such as fellow students of Dr. Hartmut Hopp, who are with him have been in America to study. Since a Siam Hussein has fled, because a tear has escaped Mr. Guenther, who is now in California; there are several people fled:

Packmor the family, the family Baar and others. Today I am still convinced that human rights are trampled in the Colonia Dignidad underfoot. The fact that I have experienced these things firsthand, has led me to the people who have been exposed for 20 years, the

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terrorist regime of Paul Schaefer, reduce the suffering in that we try this reduction system Reconstruction, it is aimed our effort. That is why we are here together in Germany to a community of interest, so stop the individual battles that never at any positive results have led. But the knowledge of the things I have seen leads me to today to help people, because I encourage in my imagination simply can not imagine the suffering these people in the last 20 years has been done in detail.

I would again like to point out that following this meeting at 14.30 clock in the restaurant held a press conference Tulpenfeld this organization.

bird Chairman: I am committed a nearly unforgivable mistake. Today we have a keen interest of ladies and gentlemen of the media reported. May I welcome you all warmly and hope that you welcome me this late verzeihen.

Baar : Aus meinen Kenntnissen und auf Grund meiner persönlichen Erlebnisse kann ich die Frage, ob sich deutsche Staatsangehörige unfreiwillig und unter menschenrechtsverletzenden Bedingungen in der Colonia Dignidad befinden, nur mit Ja beantworten. Bevor ich dieses Ja im einzelnen begründe und Ihre Fragen, soweit es mir möglich ist, beantworte, erlauben Sie mir bitte ein kurzes persönliches Wort.

Ich bin Ihrer Einladung heute sehr bewußt gefolgt, obwohl ich natürlich nicht nur ein Zeuge bin, sondern mich inzwischen als erheblich mitschuldig empfinde. Während meines Gemeindedienstes als Prediger entstanden durch meine Tätigkeit Spaltungen in den Gemeinden und Trennungen in Familien und Ehen

( Vors. Vogel : In der Bundesrepublik?)

- in der Bundesrepublik -, die sehr verheerende Folgen hatten.

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Ich bin mitschuldig daran, daß viele von denen, die heute in Dignidad sind, dorthin gegangen sind.

Als ich im Dezember 1984 aus Dignidad floh, ohne daß ich meiner Frau, unseren Kindern oder irgend jemandem sonst etwas davon sagen konnte, brachte mich die Erkenntnis meiner Schuld an den Rand des Zusammenbruchs. Wenn ich nicht vor Gott Gnade und Vergebung in diesem Zusammenbruch erlebt hätte, säße ich heute hier nicht vor Ihnen. Mir ist aber ganz klar, daß dies nicht bedeuten kann, daß meine Blame the victims and may even alleviate the law at that.

why would I like to talk with each and every affected victims and their competent authorities for any information and information are available to work with all my power to help where and how to make good forever. I can not undo it, I would like to contact all concerned with all my heart for forgiveness, I might add that I have deep understanding for those who neither forgive nor excuse can.

Now to the ground. The freedom to run, for each already, that German passports and identity cards, the Chilean are all kept in the office under lock. No one has money, and then, if he manages an escape, the bus or whatever to pay more. Among young people it is so that their clothes are kept in special cabinets in the sewing room and they get their work clothes and the so-called closing time stuff only on weekends. If somebody wants to escape, he does not even have his stuff in his room.

addition, there are above all the surrounding circumstances: The fences, allegedly for protection from communists, socialists, and the rest of us are not well-conviction were built, the trip wires in this fencing - now, this system been improved

( Rep. Walton (SPD) .! electronic)

- electronic -, shepherd dogs for the trail are very

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well trained, specialized vehicles, which then, if, somewhere, see a trip wire that something is happening and share instantly on the move. Around the Clock is next to the control room a guard. They sleep in their clothes and be awakened quickly. One of those on duty is always the same one that a shepherd dog, which they then jumps on the wagon. This guard is armed, on the issue of weapons I will come again. The vehicles in our workshop made very little noise and was equipped with infrared so that they can in the dark chasing fast. You also have appropriate radio equipment and more people can communicate when a particular alarm.

keyword Weapons: After the last edition of the "star" Mr Gemballa called the keyword, if not entirely accurate, I would also explain this in complete freedom as follows: I've never connect to the arms dealer Mertins with regard to arms sales or had similar. I have it in Chile and 1980 here in Germany for the first met, and during my office until 1975, when I was called to Chile, I had no Connection with him. But I'm on the black market you will understand that I call neither place nor name -1970/1971, after I had been called in September 1970 by Schaefer to a meeting in Chile, and had he noticed U.S. dollars in cash to purchase weapons, pistols purchased some rifles, two machine guns and several machine guns and they made it as black with our so-called charitable programs to Chile, and that was during the time of Allende's government.

Next, I would like to strip the escape point. I tried to count up how many names are known to me by those who have fled or have tried. I came to 20 But I take now only a few out, namely those cases that I have seen.

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Gerhard Laube - at the age of Dr. Hopp - has been one day suddenly disappeared, and the shepherds who were employed, then took up his trail. He was brought back. We sat in the small kitchen. Shepherd had previously - then yes, any communication is by radio-advised, they should be careful, it could be that he had his gun with him and that it came to shooting. That did not happen. Gerhard arcade was brought back. There was a short friendly conversation statt.-A digression at this point: It is quite different, wie derjenige, der geflüchtet ist und zurückgeholt wird, behandelt wird: der eine mit größter Freundlichkeit, als sei überhaupt nichts, und der andere kommt gleich ins Krankenhaus. Aber eines haben sie alle gemeinsam: Von da ab sind sie zunächst einmal Beschattete, d. h. es wird ihnen einer zugeordnet, der immer achtgibt - während der Arbeitszeit und bei allem, was auch geschieht -, wo der Betreffende sich aufhält, damit er nicht womöglich einen zweiten Fluchtversuch unternimmt.

Als nächstes möchte ich Alfred Matthusen nennen, der zur Zeit in Deutschland die Sache leitet. Alfred Matthusen hat in Santiago viele Jahre die Einkäufe in unserem Büro geleitet. Eines Tages ließ er seinen Cars are, after all carefully prepared, rose in a English machine and flew to Madrid. I just went across the yard. Schaefer went to the so-called flip - this is the place where the phones and surveillance equipment - and said to me:

Come with me quickly. We went up, and then was still called Mr. Smith, the others were held hinausgeschickt.-When particular telephone calls and radio calls, then the young men who are in there are sometimes sent out. Now began the conversation with Santiago to check it and see where he was. Because of the good relationship we were able to immediately share with leading positions at the airport and related were quickly out which machine he had fled. But he was gone. Then

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Matt Husen woman in the club room to the open-house called. I was to speak briefly with her, and Mr. Shepherd came after a few minutes to do so. The main question was Matt Husen wife, as later to my wife if she had known something like this and where is might be the reasons. She began to weep bitterly and said she could only think that Alfred, her husband, it did not bear that they had for so many years must live separately. He comes only at the weekend, and although late, from Santiago home. Then they have only the option in the bakery to find a camp behind the oven. Morning by 4 clock come the people who start at the bakery to work. Then they have to disappear again. It must not be seen that the two married couples - they had indeed already have four children - since moving together as husband and wife, nor the topic I shall touch us.

said Mr. Schaefer then only, why did he say anything-This is a very disgusting way evasive and untruthful response?. The same words he told me, the same words he told the Packmor. Afterwards they have up to my flight, to 1984, but still no room gehabt.-That gave to Mrs. Matt Husen as suspected reason why he fled was.

He then went back to Madrid from Siegburg and spent several months there. That too was typical: When Mr. Matt Husen was already in Siegburg Mr. Schaak, Mr. Schaefer said, by the way: You know already that the Tokaju - has been called the Alfred - is at the Alfred Schaak in Siegburg? He put down as if he had been sent to them, or would have gone voluntarily suddenly gone. The fact that he had fled, and all these relationships have fallen completely under the table, for the information of the members is zero, or when it occurs, it is misleading.

like a small case, call me next, that of Jürgen Szurgelies, and that is because I witnessed from Santiago by radio, as Mr. Shepherd the GE

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controls added. The boy had fled across the river.
( Rep. Duve (SPD) . How old)
- I can tell you afterwards, I have the birth date is not here now.

Then we got into Santiago, the message, and it came by telephone, the statement, they should, after they had the track and knew the house he is now, do not approach the house because it was prohibited - Trespassing -; however, they should immediately open, ie the police to communicate and talk to the police that they get him out should. That happened. The police took it out. There were many individual statements to the details. He was taken by police to the hospital. He was not beaten. But since he was further treated with psychotropic drugs. It is the time when I left, was a broken young man who looks at it. In most cases, then the shoulders are angled towards, and they go hand in hand all the same.

Another side note to an escape attempt by Gudrun Wagner. Ms. Smith, the wife of the President, had the wife Gudrun Wagner her passport - she is Austrian-under any pretext. Upon learning that Mr. Schaefer, was Ms. Schmidt, who ran the office, on the allerfürchterlichste scolded, her the key of the cupboard where the passports had been revoked for good. This was given only to the Honourable Dr. Seewald.

Mr. Schaefer takes in all things that happened to him anything through, though he asks someone else or to discuss or anything else.

Now something very important, the question of torture. I witnessed that my own daughter - it's awful - -

bird Chairman: Mr. Baar, sure, but I have to see, that all who have been invited here today, have the opportunity to speak to report.

( Rep. Duve (SPD) . The ist der zentrale Punkt, Herr Vorsitzender!)

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- Ich bitte, mich nicht zu unterbrechen, wenn ich versuche, die Verhandlung hier so zu leiten, daß wir wirklich auch mit der Zeit hinkommen. Ich habe volles Verständnis dafür, daß Sie umfangreich berichten wollen. Aber wir können unmöglich hier eine vollständige Beweisaufnahme durchführen. Würden Sie bitte versuchen, Herr Baar, das, was Sie noch vorzutragen haben, möglichst konzentriert vorzutragen.

Baar : Ich versuche es.

Ich erlebte mit, wie meine eigene Tochter, die zu der damaligen Zeit 28 Jahre alt war , als ich gerade durch ging, zu Herrn Schäfer gerufen wurde, und fell without a word, Mr. Schaefer began to embark in the crudest form with fists at them. He hit her in the face, and it did not care where he hintraf. She fell to the ground. He trampled on. When she came up again, he struck, until she fell into another corner. Then after he shouted out, you bastard! I stood there as a father and saw it all. I was asked: Why did not you come to the rescue? Or: What did you tell him or what he told you? He considers it not necessary to give then the father or the mother even a single word of explanation.

I experienced especially with the terrible case of Peter Rahl, I here at all costs but would like to describe, because it is one of the most gruesome cases. Dr. Hopp has seen this case up to the individual. He has, before the boy was called, even made a little introduction, namely that it is a sick man Peter trafficking. Then he was taken to the hospital, and when he got asked some questions, it went under the motto: You're lying! He had made any statement, and the whole drama of the fight began in the most terrible way, as I had never witnessed before. Beat on it all. Up to a few gentlemen of the seniors who - remained seated, stood the whole group around him. Who got it straight in between, to hit him, whether in the face if the cross again, wherever

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forever. He fell and he was bleeding. Finally, he was then up, stretched out to the bathroom, washed with cold water a bit and tried to wipe away the traces of blood .- That's it.

a case involving a marriage: an example 4ojährige had begun a friendship just by talking. It was launched with her mother and two other ladies in the so-called conference room. After a brief exchange of words struck shepherd her in the presence of her mother - and I stood there and also Mr. Schmidt left and right in the face. She was later taken away in her room.

would Here I play a set, der mir unvergessen bleibt. Ich brachte sie dann in dem Wagen zu der Stelle, wo ihr Fahrrad stand. Sie saß im Wagen und weinte. Nur wir beide waren im Wagen. Dann guckte sie zu mir herüber und schrie mich an: Du bist schuld daran, daß ich hier bin. Diese Tatsache, dieser Ausspruch steht für mich für viele, viele andere. Deshalb habe ich auch in meinem persönlichen Wort vorhin darauf hingewiesen.

Ich kürze. Man kann die gesamte Verhaltensweise überhaupt nicht verstehen, wenn man nicht das Stichwort ,Beichte“ mit berücksichtigt, d. h. daß die einzelnen alles aussprechen. Das hat nichts mehr mit Beichte im christlichen Sinne zu tun, denn es geht bis in die Gedankenwelt hinein. Niemand darf etwas haben, what is secret. On one side is to say everyone everything, and makes every everything, he is thereby already confused because sometimes he do not know what to say, and accuses it of itself. There are no secrets. On the other hand, you may with one another, ie talking parents with children or work colleagues about nothing in

- Fundo happening, even if there are trifles, so that the couple can only speak in a certain sense each other, but not about personal problems, for that could again lead to consequences, because the second argument of Shepherd says: He who speaks is, whosoever hears, but is even more guilty. So now when I my wife something